Adam Mitchell [00:00:00]:
When it comes to the safety of our children, one of the most common misunderstood areas of training and and really getting down is the topic of communicating with our kids what to do after a conflict has happened, meaning, how do we speak with the school teacher? How do we speak with the principal? How do we speak with law enforcement? What do we do in that moment? And to be able to train our children how to navigate this very brief moment in what we call post conflict, we need to look through the eyes of how they're gonna be feeling, what's gonna be going on in their mind and in their nervous system, say, after a fight or after they're getting they're getting disciplined for something that they really don't know all the details about yet. So this is a pretty sensitive topic, which is why I brought in my friend, Mike Hammond, who is a retired Chicago, homicide detective. He's also the host of detective story with Mike Hammond. He's also a dad of 2. And we have in a a really thought provoking conversation that's gonna give you a framework for regardless of how old your child is, whether they're young in elementary school, middle school, or in high school. It's gonna give you a framework to communicate with them through, a number of different situations. So in that pre conflict stage where a child is scared that something's gonna escalate, how to talk to someone, who to talk to, and how to really protect the, protect themself, how to use fear as a tool, and how to make sure that we guide them away from ignoring fear and saying, oh, don't be scared. Just kinda face up.
Adam Mitchell [00:01:44]:
Instead, we wanna actually use fear, as our weapon for safety, and in this conversation, we talk a bit about that. Mike's also gonna share some of his own experiences as a homicide investigator and working with children, victims of children and their families, and we're gonna talk about the different school systems and how a lot of schools will oftentimes skirt these problems and avoid the rights of the child, both the victim and, the person who may be doing the bullying or whatever the situation might be. The most important thing is that you prepare your child with the information that they need, and how you need to respond as a parent. We're gonna talk about some common sense stuff, but, really, when we're done with this, episode, you're gonna have a good basic framework, and you'll be able to, today, have some extremely important conversations with your children regardless of where they are so that they can stay safe, and they know what to do after conflict. So let's get started with my friend, Mike Hammond. Hey there. I wanna welcome you back to this episode of the Close Quarter Dad Podcast. Today, I'm on with my friend, Mike Hammond, and we're gonna have an incredible conversation, a very valuable and meaningful conversation for men who have the concern about communicating with their children centered around law enforcement, articulation, the use of force when it comes to actually having to defend themselves.
Adam Mitchell [00:03:13]:
It can be an uncomfortable conversation, and it can also be a life changing conversation. It can be an empowering one, and if missed and if done incorrectly, can also be a very damaging one. But first first, before we get going, let me just introduce Mike, and share a little bit about his story, and then, we'll we'll dive right in. Mike is a retired homicide detective, with the Chicago Police Department. He's a member of the Chicago he's been a member of Chicago police department for 22 years. During that time, he was promoted to detective in 2000 where he served, an area 4 homicide unit, cold case homicide unit, an area north homicide unit until his retirement 2016. He is the recipient of the Chicago Police Department Superintendents Award of Valor, currently the host of detective story with Mike Hammond podcast, which has a focus on victims and their families and discussions of actual cases and investigations. And we were talking about that before we hit the record button, and we're gonna get to that, towards the end of this episode.
Adam Mitchell [00:04:18]:
I really wanna hear more about that because the work there is very, very, powerful. So you're gonna wanna stick around for the complete episode here. Mike, before we get started, I just wanna acknowledge you. I wanna thank you, share my gratitude. Although I am not a resident of Chicago, I hope that I can speak on behalf of some of the men who, in our program, in our community who are from that area. Thank you for your service.
Mike Hammond [00:04:41]:
Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Thank you.
Adam Mitchell [00:04:46]:
So, Mike, part of the reason I wanted to have you on the, on the podcast is I wanna talk about guiding children through the conversation of use of force. As you know better than I do, different municipalities, different states, even different school districts, they have different policies on when a child can defend him or herself, physically. And what does that look like? And how does a parent who doesn't know or even a parent who thinks they do know, what are some of the incredible risks that they, could leave themself open to if they don't have this conversation? And then I'd like to step into what you see from your experience, but not just as a law enforcement professional, but also as a father. Let's open up the conversation around that. Where do we begin with this conversation from your perspective, Mike?
Mike Hammond [00:05:45]:
Well, they're all really good good questions, and and I'm really happy that you're having this this kind of open conversation and and putting this thought process out there because I think it's critically important. And I'll start with the ways that the risk of not having these conversations. Mhmm. You want your I have 2 children myself. They're in their twenties now, a boy and a girl. I mean, you know, it's you want them to be able to be safe and protect themselves. Right? But you also wanna make sure they understand how to keep themselves out of trouble and the risk of not doing that. Right? So the risk of not doing that are, you know, they can risk their well, they can get hurt, they can risk their future, they they can get kicked out of school, all of those things.
Mike Hammond [00:06:36]:
And, there are, and this is no I have a lot of friends who are attorneys, so this is no shade on on them. But there are law firms out there that they make real money, you know, real wealth, and all they do is civil lawsuits. And as a as a policeman and especially as a homicide detective, that was part of my life was getting sued, getting deposed. Almost everything I did, there was some law firm trying to you know, that that was it was just endless. Right? So I had to learn how to articulate and teach other policemen, younger detectives, when when, you know, I helped train them as I got older, like, the critical importance of articulation. Report writing in turn in in the case of police officers and detectives is very, very important. As a civilian, that's less of a concern, but being able to articulate your position is critically important. And and getting your kids thinking about that, is very, very important.
Mike Hammond [00:07:47]:
And that, you know, so in terms of, like, in the extreme case, as as, you know, talking to police officers, the use of deadly force, right, which is the extreme end of, you know, defending yourself or or the use of violence if necessary. And the critical parts of that, I think, are applicable down to a fist fight for 6th graders. Right? Like, you have to be able to articulate that you had in this deadly force or in fear for your life or the life of another. Those two critical things are important. Right? So people often ask or see something on the news and see a guy walks into a store and robs a store. Right? And the store owner shoots him, shoots the robber, and kills him. Should be fair game. Right? Like, you you walk in, you're a bad guy, you rob the store, the risk is on you.
Mike Hammond [00:08:51]:
It's not necessarily, though, because that store owner, like everybody else, has to articulate their use of force. They're in fear for their life. Certainly, a guy walks up, puts a gun in your face, you're in fear for your life. Puts a gun to one of your customers' hit heads, you're in fear for their life. Your life or the life of another. Right? Now he's robbed the place, and he's running out and he's running across the thing and you shoot him. It's a different situation, and all laws are different everywhere. They'll stand your ground in some places, gives you a little more leeway.
Mike Hammond [00:09:25]:
But the fact of the matter is civil attorneys are gonna be looking at things, and and that it's harder to articulate than you are in fear for your life or you're in fear for the life of somebody else. The guy's running away. Right? Now I'm not making judgments about that. I'm just saying I'm just saying that is the way it works out in the end. And so on a as you go down the ladder of the use of force, and you're talking to your kids about this and the kid's picking on him in school and and, you know, it's gonna be a fight. You know? Can you get out of it? Can you get away from it? Now you're a martial arts instructor. I'm sure you talk about this all the time. Avoidance, critical thing to know and learn.
Mike Hammond [00:10:07]:
Like, if I can get away from it, it's not about my ego. It is about getting out of there and getting away from it. Right? You do that, do that. If if you have no other choice but to use force to defend yourself, then you need to be and your children need to be able to articulate why, and I think that's important for two real reasons. 1, to keep them out of trouble and to keep you from getting sued because, ultimately, you're responsible financially responsible for your children. And, you know, if if, you know, some bully's picking on them, they break, you know, they break their arm or something, they need to be able to articulate why they did it. Right? And because the civil attorneys, if they see you've got a house, they've got you they're they're they make him laugh at you. So that articulation is really important.
Mike Hammond [00:10:56]:
There's talk to them about that, why you had to use force. And and and that'll do 2 things. It'll also make them think about, is this really necessary, right, which I know you I'm sure you talk about a lot in your dojo. Is this necessary? Is this use of force, this use of training you're giving him, is it necessary? If it is, it is, but you need to be able to articulate that. He was a he I was in fear. He was gonna hurt me or he was gonna hurt somebody else and I couldn't let it happen. Right? Those are things that they they I think are critical to talk to kids about all the time. You know what I mean?
Adam Mitchell [00:11:36]:
Yeah. I can imagine, a couple of things here that a father should really recognize is that when a child is in that post conflict zone after whether they've been in a scuffle or after, a girl has realized that she's been a victim of social exclusion. She's been brought into a community of girls to elevate her only to really let her down, and then they become physically abusive or any of these, like, any of these, these post conflict episodes that they're gonna they're gonna have, whether it's an adrenal dump, or there's gonna be looping going on, or they're gonna feel like they're not gonna be able they're not gonna be making sense. So the real sort of baseline conversation that they should have, what what I'm hearing from you, first of all, is for a father to really understand the priority right now of articulation, not just, you know, you know, get on the phone and call me, and I'll come down there and handle it, or you do what you gotta do. But but to understand that the this conflict could continue on not just not just after the fight and the dust is settled, but for years in litigation, for years in litigation, if right at the beginning, you're not able to look the teacher in the face and say, I was scared for my safety. I was scared. And what I'm hearing also from you is that before it gets to that point, being able to go to that teacher and say, I am scared for my safety, that they're gonna they wanna fight me or they're gonna hurt me. What I say, Mike, I'd love to hear your feedback on this, is I try to coach the dads to say to teach your child when they feel scared, it's okay to say you're scared.
Adam Mitchell [00:13:23]:
Fear should become one of your best tools. Get rid of this whole, you know, don't have any fear. Don't show any fear. No. Use fear. Use fear. It's something you were born with, and it's a powerful tool. And, I'd love to hear your feedback on, having a father guide their child to be able to say before anything happens, I'm scared for my safety, and if you can't help me, take me to who can.
Adam Mitchell [00:13:48]:
Yep. And if anything happens after that physically, then that child, they can use. They can go to a place of force and to be able to use those martial arts skills or to use whatever they need to get themselves to safety. How do you feel about that?
Mike Hammond [00:14:04]:
Yeah. Oh, I couldn't agree more, and I think it, you you know, that's well said, but you, I think I have been in deadly force situations myself. I've been shot at. I've had to use deadly force. I have been in multiple conflicts on the street. And, you know, fear, when you try and suppress it, it just it just causes you to not react ideally. And even when you hear the real high level, you know, special forces guys talk about this, they don't suppress their fear. They don't they they accept it and it and they yeah.
Mike Hammond [00:14:42]:
I'm scared. But you you you let it flow through you, and then you move on to the next thing. Acknowledge. Yeah. It's okay to be afraid. It's okay to be afraid. And when you, you know, like I I always was comfortable in that space or whatever. I'm not afraid to say that it's scary, to to be in those situations.
Mike Hammond [00:15:05]:
And, and I think that having kind of seen so much of that for so long, it it it become easy for me to talk about, you know, and say, yeah. Yeah. It's terrifying. But like anything else, you accept it for for what it is and let you self process it and keep moving forward. And and and acknowledging that fear, is important, I think, for and being comfortable being in a space where you're comfortable acknowledging that fear, I think it builds helps build self confidence, because it's not this great. First of all, you're not worried about having this mask out there, you know, of trying to be something you're not. You know? And and and then, you know, you can start to understand. Well, yep.
Mike Hammond [00:15:57]:
I'm I'm afraid. And, also, I think a critical part of this is this and and this is something I talk to people about all the time, this instinctual thing that we learn to we kind of reason away. Right? Animals survive by instinct, and we have that in us. But we have the ability to reason. We try and reason it away for a lot of reasons. You know? Like, well, I don't wanna judge somebody. I don't wanna look. If something doesn't feel right, assume it's not right.
Mike Hammond [00:16:32]:
And my kids, I warn this them out with this. If it doesn't if you're at a party and somebody comes in or something happens, it doesn't feel right, and now they're both, you know, drinking age, you're in a bar or something it doesn't feel right, assume it's not. Get yourself out of that situation and your friends. You're responsible to the people you're around. And, if you're hanging around with the right people, you're less likely to get in those situations. But if you do, do you're responsible to each other? Get everybody out. And if they won't go, fine. Well, alright.
Mike Hammond [00:17:08]:
You stay, but I'm not comfortable. I'm going. My kids, I I have heard that so much that they're they probably laugh hearing me say it now. But I I think it's just really an important thing to impart upon your children. If it doesn't feel right, acknowledge it. It's just like fear. Acknowledge it. I'm afraid.
Mike Hammond [00:17:28]:
Why am I afraid? Now I gotta I I gotta keep moving. I can't be frozen into fear. Yep. I feel afraid. Articulate why it is. It's this big bad guy over there or this person picking on me or these girls trying to back me into a corner. That's why. Okay.
Mike Hammond [00:17:45]:
So now I need to move past that fear and make decisions. Right? Can I get myself out of here and not let my ego control that and what people are gonna think of me and all that? Because, you know, in the end, we all want our kids safe. Yeah. We don't you know, it's not about ego. We want them home. We want them safe. Right? So I I think those are really important things to talk about and and understanding that fear, acknowledging it, moving on. You know? I I I was at Winston Churchill.
Mike Hammond [00:18:24]:
Somebody's famous for quoting that. Like, you know, real courage is being scared and doing it anyway. Right? So, and doing it anyway sometimes is running away. It's flat running away. One of the funniest and I also think more informative little video blips I've ever seen was some big navy seal guys saying, I'm gonna teach you how to knife fight, the defense to a knife fight. Have you seen this little video? It's awesome. And I was probably if I final send it to you, but so he said, I've got my partner here, and they're 2 big, you know, stud look it look like Navy Seals. Right? I mean, and he goes, so now I'm gonna teach you basic defense to a knife fight, how to keep yourself in control.
Mike Hammond [00:19:10]:
Right? So the partner pulls out this big knife and the camera pans back to him, and he's already 20 yards away running. You know what I mean? Like, that's the best defense to a knife fight. Run away. If you can get away, get away. And and I love that. I mean, they did as a joke, but that's also real good information. I know they did that on purpose. Right? Like, that's it.
Mike Hammond [00:19:30]:
It's it's not so, I I those are kind of conversations that, that that I have a lot. The other big thing, and and I won't go too long with this, but another critical point to talk to your kids about harp on my again, know where you're at. Where are you at right now? You know? Yeah. Where are you at right now? You are you're home. Okay. Where's home? And and especially for, you know, a 3, 4 year old when when my kids are old enough now. When kids start getting old enough, and I know the age varies a little bit, where they can articulate themselves, Need you know? Where are you at? I'm at home. Where's home? Where's home? Right? Because if they have to call for help, I'm the home.
Mike Hammond [00:20:22]:
Well, you know, where is home? Where is home? Right? That's where it starts. Know where your address is. Know where you live. And then all the time, like, where are you at? Where are you at? You don't think about it. Well, I'm on my way to school. I'm on my yeah. Okay. But where? If somebody comes up to you, always be cognizant of where you're at, and, and and that's a life lesson, I think, for everybody.
Mike Hammond [00:20:45]:
Even policemen sometimes would just baffle me, you know, policemen. And it happens. It's the way of life, but, you know, they they get suddenly, they get into a really bad situation, and they're confused. And under that stress, they they're not sure where they're at. And as a policeman trying to come to their aid, you're like, okay, man. You gotta tell us where you're at. We we, you know, we can't cover the whole city of Chicago. You know? So if you're thinking you start that process with them early and be consistent with it and and just know where you're at know where you're at.
Mike Hammond [00:21:20]:
That in itself, I think, could save their life.
Adam Mitchell [00:21:23]:
That's awesome. I'm playing that out in my head, Mike. And, you know, I know when you you know, your body is going through that fight or flight and that confusion settles in, and those processes aren't firing right now because other things are. If you're a father who's never had the exposure to that level of violence or victimization when someone is in it, then the what you're recommending doesn't really make a whole lot of what do you mean? I know where I'm at. My kid says he's at home. He's at home. Oh, well, no. I understand what you're saying.
Adam Mitchell [00:21:56]:
But if we play that out with our kids and we almost make a game of it, almost like a I spy with my little eye kind of thing, I I was just as you were saying that I was driving to school with my 12 year old in my head, and I was we were going through an intersection on the route that we take every single day in her town, and I'm saying, where are you right now? Well, I'm with you, dad. Where is that? And she would say, in your car. And I would say, where's the car? And she would say, on the road. And and you keep you keep asking that to see how far can your child take this Because that's really what first that's what you know, if she does call 911, that's they're gonna need to know that. And when the child's shaking, when the child is still in fight or flight, when the child is still completely pumping with fear, they're gonna need to have be able to process that information. And the more you play that, you role play with that, you role play that with them, their processes will be able to function greater and better during that period when stress is in overwhelm. Is that what I'm hearing, Mike?
Mike Hammond [00:23:02]:
Absolutely. In fact, I love the idea that your concept of, like, making your game out of it. And that's something that, you know, I I wish I had thought about that when my kids were young because it it I always come across as the dad is a homicide detective. You know? And their mother is a special ed teacher. So she has kids trying to manipulate them all day long, and I have people lying to me all day long. So our kids were just like, yeah. Alright. Well, I'm just gonna tell the truth and deal with the consequences because it's my parents are impossible to lie to and manipulate.
Mike Hammond [00:23:32]:
But but I I would love to have kinda had that concept that you just talked about of making a game out of it, especially as they're younger. Like, you know, just where you at? Where you at? Exactly. Exact because that becomes part of your subconscious. And then what happens when you're under great duress is you kinda revert back as you I'm sure you show in the dojo and you know as a lifelong martial artist, you revert back to your training or what you know. Right? And, and so that concept of that game is is really great because you just drive around and you're playing kids with your, you know, word game with your kids anyway if you're driving around. Right? So having some to talk and engage with them about, I love that. Yeah. Where where were you at? Where were your car? Where's your car at? You know? Where is if if I stopped right now, where are we at? You know what I mean? And may you know, eventually, you're getting to the point where they're looking for addresses.
Mike Hammond [00:24:29]:
They're looking for street signs, and they're so far ahead of the game, you know, because you do that and you ingrain that in them over and over as fun and as a game, then then it literally could save their life. You know? Because something happens, god forbid, you know, somebody grabs them or something. They have no idea where they're at. They don't have no idea. It's hard for an adult. It's hard for a trained policeman. Look. I've been through this myself.
Mike Hammond [00:24:57]:
You know, you're in a building, and it's a big building, and you're on it I'm I'm at this address. I'm at this address. And and you got policeman on there saying, yeah. Where where are you at in the building? And you're like, where the hell am I, actually? You know what I mean? Like, I know where the address I'm at, but I I I went up this staircase, and I turned here. You know what I mean? So, yeah, it it that's I I love that idea of yours, and I think that that that's a really great way to build, again, build confidence in in your kids and also make you feel a lot better because you start doing that when they're young. By the time they're 13, 14, 15, and you're worried really about their safety no matter where you live in this country, unfortunately, anymore, whether you're especially for an urban area. But even if you're not, you start to worry about at least you have that presence of mind that, you know, you text them or you call them and say, where are you at? They're gonna have all that in their head. They're gonna they're not gonna say, well, I'm at Ginny's house.
Mike Hammond [00:25:59]:
You know? Oh, they're gonna say, you know, I'm at, 15 I'm at Ginny's house at 1520, you know, West Cherry or whatever. You know what I mean? And, you're so far ahead of the game then because, that's just kind of a, and that's something that rarely gets talked about.
Adam Mitchell [00:26:18]:
Yeah. And and I wanna get back to the to framing this conversation here that we're putting together. I've got 2 questions, that I took from what you shared. One of the things just to to go one step further with this is with the younger children, I encourage dads to have the conversation of, you know, no child's gonna be like, I'm on the corner of Route 6, and Hamilton. You You know, they're not gonna say that, but teaching children from the beginning to say red building, traffic light, bus stop, and pick 3 characteristics about where you are right now. Because if you need to drop breadcrumbs on a call that can only be a couple seconds long, that completely opens up the window of survival so much more and gives, you know, first response so much more to work with quickly. Would you agree?
Mike Hammond [00:27:08]:
Yeah. Absolutely. For sure. You know, the more information, the better. Yeah. Because time is of the essence. You know, when when bad things kick off, you know, seconds, as Gordon Lightfoot. Right? Seconds become hours.
Mike Hammond [00:27:25]:
I mean, it really does matter. And if you have you think about, like, the physical part of taking them to your Jojo, teaching them to defend themselves, that's really great stuff, and I highly recommend it. But I think that you can become more interactive, and you look. You're just gonna feel better about yourself as a parent. Right? Because I'm communicating. I'm communicating valuable stuff. And even if they don't know it, it's just a game that we started playing in the car. Right? Or in in the home.
Mike Hammond [00:27:58]:
Where you at? Where you at? And, I I I, you know, I think that, really, it's good for every everything and everyone. You know?
Adam Mitchell [00:28:09]:
Yeah. So getting back to this conversation here, a couple of things that I'm hearing. The first thing is that articulation, but then you shared a couple of other things. You know, we talked about fear, and then we talked about your, gut instinct or your own intuition and trusting your judgment. In a in a time, in an age, you know, on Snapchat, TikTok, there's this whole other reality being told of who you should be and possibly even questioning, telling you to question the internal dialogue of who you are and your own sense of self awareness and sort of telling it it should be something else. So you really hit on something interesting, and I'd like to kinda unpack this, which is, the the what I'm hearing is is to have the conversation, and the first thing to really do is to share with your child that they have your permission to trust their inner voice. Right? That dad wants you to when you feel this, it's right, and maybe even start the conversation with that. When something doesn't feel comfortable, when you feel fear, you have to know that that fear is an emotion that is your best friend that just took a seat next to you and said, okay.
Adam Mitchell [00:29:24]:
I'm here. Let's move into something. Let's move into a conversation. Let's acknowledge the fear, and let's call it what it is. I'm scared. I'm scared for what? I'm scared for my safety. I now need to voice that, or I'm scared for Jenny's safety because I heard these girls talking with saying what they're gonna do to her, and I'm scared for her and to not be quiet about that. And even if you don't know, for certain, if you didn't hear them say that, if that is what your heart is saying, that's what you're feeling in your gut, you it's that inner voice is speaking to you.
Adam Mitchell [00:29:58]:
You need to voice that to a teacher, or to mom and dad or to the bus driver or to someone and to give that child the permission to trust and to use the power that they have of their inner voice. Is that what I'm hearing from you, Mike?
Mike Hammond [00:30:14]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I I think that, you know, I use the analogy a lot with with animals, you know, because, you know, kids love animals and and the truth is I I I grew up in the woods in western southwestern Indiana, and my family, I spent a lot of time here in Chicago as a kid and and moved up here out of college permanently. But I remember thinking as a kid, like, I'd play in the woods and you see these big buck deer. Right? Big antlers, the kind that hunters really want on their wall. I'd see them all the time. Right? But then deer season would start, and I wouldn't see them at all.
Mike Hammond [00:30:57]:
I'm like, how do they know? As a kid, I would think, how do they know? You know what I mean? Like, just I couldn't quite figure it out. Then as I got older, especially when I got kind of involved in this world of violence and working on the west side of Chicago and seeing all the things I saw, you know, I started to understand that that you know, how they know? Because they don't reason. They they they survive off their instincts. And all year, they're out in the woods and they're fine, and they can go out in cornfields and they're fine. But when they start starts to get to whatever it's, barometric pressure changes, the time the leaves change, But when they start hearing humans in the woods setting up their tree stands, making noise, checking out their spots, they know what's coming next. Right? They don't know it because they can reason it and they take notes. They know it because it's instinctual. They had a cellular level to them.
Mike Hammond [00:31:56]:
And they go deep in the woods, and they find their hidden place, and they stay there. That's why those big trophy deer are really hard to find. You know? And that's my simplistic way in my life experience explaining that that we have that. We all have that. We all have that instinct that something's not right. Right? But we reason it away because we don't we we don't wanna feel judgmental. We don't wanna feel whatever way. But but it's not about that.
Mike Hammond [00:32:31]:
It is about, well, you know, something's telling me this isn't right. I need to listen to it. And when, like, you know, when you work on the west side of Chicago, you start to understand or at least I did, you know, better listen to that voice, and I that I know it saved me. I know there was times where I'm like, you know, I'm I'm getting ready to go through a door looking for somebody for a murder, and some slow down. Step. Stop. Stop. Stop.
Mike Hammond [00:32:57]:
You know? And sometimes, unfortunately, it would take me a second to hear and listen, but as soon as I did, I did. I I didn't question it. I'm just like, oh, let's stop here and recalibrate. You know? And, it served me well, and I I think that is something that we need to impart on our kids. And like I talked about with my kids, I I if it doesn't feel right, you're in a place and it doesn't feel right, assume it's not. Don't try and reason away. Don't try and figure it out. Get yourself out of that situation.
Mike Hammond [00:33:31]:
Get the people you care about. Let them know. And and like you said, make your kids feel like they can communicate that to you, and and you're gonna be accepting of it, you know, and that'll make them feel stronger again. I think it's just one of those things. You know, what do we want for our kids? We want them to be happy, of course. You know? We want them to be well adjusted, but we want them to be self confident too. Right? We want them to Yeah. For sure.
Mike Hammond [00:33:57]:
Feel. And that's kind of the basis of those things, and and I think all of this helps build self confidence, being in your dojo, being able to communicate when they're scared, you know, and and learning to move past that. Yeah. Right? Because, you know, as as you and I talked about when when you know, right before we came on, No matter how much we'd love to protect him and keep him safe, life's gonna throw challenges at him. And and I see, you know, we all see it. Right? We see these parents that they wanna be friends with their kids. They wanna and then often, I I've seen a tragic end of that. But at at best, life is gonna throw some big challenge at them.
Mike Hammond [00:34:44]:
It just is. And they're gonna they're just not gonna be as prepared to deal with it as a as a as kids who are allowed to to kinda learn to fail, who are allowed to express their fear and learn to move past it, learn to move. You're not gonna make every team. You're not gonna, you know, win every tournament. You're not gonna, you know, you're gonna get injured. You're things are gonna happen. You know? You're not gonna get into every school you wanna get into, whatever it is, but it's not you you move like fear, you acknowledge it, you move on to the next thing.
Adam Mitchell [00:35:19]:
You know? And, let's let's let me share with you a couple things, and and I'd like to get your feedback on that acknowledging the fear. One of the things that oh, one of the things, many of the things that within this one topic of fear that I try to impress on dads is the more you're able to walk your child through the exposure of fear and the more sensations that you're able to expose them to, such as sweaty palms, arms get weak, legs get weak, blood's pulling in because, fight or flight's kicking in, maybe even tunnel vision. Possibly, they might feel like they wanna piss their pants. Like, all these different things when they feel threatened in that way will begin to happen. Now when we talk when we have that conversation about fear, Mike, I'd love you to add to this. I'd love to put something else in my toolbox. If we share these responses that the body's gonna go through, both the emotional, the, well, the physiological, all these changes, the looping and the same things over and like, if we make our child recognize this is this is what's gonna happen to you, then they're gonna be able to regulate it better because they're gonna know what's gonna be like. Alright.
Adam Mitchell [00:36:38]:
Dad told me that this was gonna happen. Okay. This is why. So they'll be able to move past that. Is there anything that you you would say to that or anything that you might wanna add to that? Well, you know,
Mike Hammond [00:36:51]:
there's there's a harsh thing that I tell people and I've told my kids, and and and I wouldn't wanna frighten young kids with it, but I think you build up to it. And and when you're comfortable having the conversation, you do. But I I tell my kids and whoever else ask me about, like, safety and what do I do? What do I do in worst case scenario, school shootings or pick 1. Right? One of the things that's important to understand is you never count on the mercy of your fellow man. Just can't do it. You have to assume the worst and then act accordingly. You know? And that that's a really tough conversation to have with a 5 year old. Right? You don't want him to be terrified and laying awake in bed at night.
Mike Hammond [00:37:40]:
So you kinda gotta build up to it. But but, you know, I've I've had by now, my kids have heard it, and and I'd you know, I I I know that sounds pretty harsh, but it's just my life experience when, I have very frankly, I've learned a lot having conversations with gang members and prostitutes and and that whole like, you learn a lot about life. Right? And look. You talk to a a prostitute on the west side of Chicago, and you can learn some unbelievable life lessons. And and one of the ones you hear people say all the time, like, you know, when it's time to go, it's time to go. It's like you're the 3rd monkey getting on Noah's Ark right now. It's starting to rain. Well, you know, that's that's when, you know, on a hooker on the west side of Chicago, somebody tries to grab and pull pull grab them off the street and pull them into a van, it's not at all like pulling some kid outside of a nice high school and grabbing them.
Mike Hammond [00:38:54]:
It is on, and you better you better have a better plan, and I'm just gonna grab them and pull them because they're gonna turn into a wild animal and fight you until they're dead because they're assuming if they get pulled in that van, they're dead anyway. Right?
Adam Mitchell [00:39:08]:
Yeah.
Mike Hammond [00:39:09]:
And so when and, again, this is a build up thing. I didn't want my kids to be terrified. I didn't want them to land. So this is a build up thing, kind of, and and exposure, to to to people like you in training is is critical with this. But when it's time to go, it's time to go. You got I mean, with all your might, you cannot count on, well, eventually, this person's gonna treat me okay or not gonna hurt me. No. You just can't.
Mike Hammond [00:39:44]:
You you got
Adam Mitchell [00:39:44]:
that inner voice thing, though, wouldn't you say?
Mike Hammond [00:39:47]:
It is. It really is. You just count count on mercy. You have to you have to go and you have to go hard, and and that's that's a shitty conversation to have with your kids. It really is. But I just thought, you know well, my my ex wife, who I'm so very close with, when we're when we're pregnant with my my oldest, which is my daughter, people ask me, do you want a boy or a girl? And I I and, honestly, I would say, you know, it doesn't matter to me. I I had 2 brothers. I never had a sister.
Mike Hammond [00:40:23]:
So, in some ways, a daughter would be really cool. And but I used to joke, like, if it's a boy, I don't you know, he can I don't care if he turns out to be Liberace? But if it if if it if it's a girl, no daughter of mine is ever gonna be a victim because, you know and that's probably not the right way to think, but my daughter says every dad, though. Right. Right. My daughter's a badass. I mean, she's street smart. She's real smart. And, she I, you know, I had her into martial arts when she was young.
Mike Hammond [00:40:59]:
She never really took to it. You know? She kinda understands gun. She's not gun person, but, boy, she's also not a very big girl. She's kind of, you know, probably 53, 54 lean. But you're gonna have your hands full if you think you're just gonna grab her because her dad has, you know, reeled into her. Don't go quietly into that good night. You know? Battle, battle, battle, and you can see it in her, I think, and that probably keeps a lot of would be bad guys away just looking at the look in her eye. You know? I mean, and knock on wood, it's not to say that, you know, she couldn't get hurt.
Mike Hammond [00:41:46]:
Always about, you know, being careful and being aware, but, you know, and, again, I I say all this, like, you know, you know, some John Wick stuff. You you part and parcel with this, and I'm sure, you know, you know, I had I mean, you also wanna let them be kids as long as they can be kids because it doesn't last forever. Right? So you kinda just that and that's why I love your concept of, you know, playing the game with with, you know, knowing where they're at. Because, look, if if if that's all you teach them to to kinda always be aware of where they're at, then they're far ahead of 80% of the population. You know what I mean?
Adam Mitchell [00:42:28]:
And those same lessons can be taught by going on a hike and just teaching simple orienteering, just teaching simple, like, how to step on a rock versus moss, like, how to identify certain things. There's so many different ways that you can unpack that and still deliver the same skill set to them.
Mike Hammond [00:42:43]:
Yep. Yeah. Great.
Adam Mitchell [00:42:44]:
So if we go to the the we go back to that point of articulation, what when a what does a father explain to their children when the child is cons you know, we wanna make sure that let me digress here. We wanna make sure that we're an we are answering the questions that our kids don't know to ask. Right? And one of them is, how do I speak to a teacher after I have punched that kid? What do I say? What do I not say? And then do do I is it the same thing to a police officer if the if the, I don't know what they call them in in Chicago, but what they're called the resource officer here? Are they the, pretty
Mike Hammond [00:43:32]:
much the school resource officer. Yeah.
Adam Mitchell [00:43:36]:
How do how do I commune or do I just keep my mouth shut until mom or dad shows up? What how what is that sort of post conflict communication that they need to have after we've told them, after the, you know, trust your instinct, trust your gut, respond as appropriate. You've already told the teacher that you're scared or you tried to get out of the situation. You articulated it. It still didn't work. These kids still cornered you in the staircase or, you know, fill in the blank, but it ended up going to that point of no return. And you ended up getting into a scuffle or fighting a kid or what have you. How do we coach a father into what now? How do we have that conversation?
Mike Hammond [00:44:20]:
Well, you know, I think, first, that acknowledgment of fear and teaching him that that, you know, it's okay to be afraid. It's okay to say you're afraid. That will pay big dividends in that scenario because even if you run into somebody and we all, you you know, this is the real life thing, right, where where somebody is gonna make your kid out to be the bad person in this, right, because of whatever reason. You know? The other kid's parents are popular or or wealthy or or or whatever scenario you wanna put together. It's a very difficult obstacle to get over if you're trying to vilify someone else, especially a a a child. If that child is articulating, I was afraid. I was afraid. Even if they won the fight and kick the shit out of the bully, still, like, I was afraid.
Mike Hammond [00:45:23]:
This happened because I was afraid. I was backed into a corner. I was in fear for my safety. I was in fear and that so you don't want it to sound coached. Right? So, I would just keep it as simple as because you start saying things like, you know, teach your kids robotically. So I was in fear for my safety. You know? I was in fear for the safety of someone else. Like, sounds a little coached, and it's tough for a kid to do that.
Mike Hammond [00:45:51]:
But just simply, I was afraid. I was afraid. I was afraid. I was afraid of the person. I was just afraid. Right? And they can, you know And then So the second half of that is, as soon as your kid starts to feel like they're against them, they're not believing them, they're trying to vilify them, it is time then to lawyer up. Right? And in this case, for a kid, lawyer up is I want my parents. I wanna talk to my parents.
Mike Hammond [00:46:28]:
I want my parents here. Right? As soon as they feel that because now they've told them, I'm afraid. I was afraid. I was afraid. Well, that's not enough. You broke his arm or you, you know, you you you you his nose is broken or whatever. You're afraid. How can you be afraid? You'd be well, I was afraid.
Mike Hammond [00:46:48]:
And when that starts look. I wanna talk to mom and dad. I want my mom and dad here. You know? Mom or dad, whatever. I want them here. Basically, they're lawyering up. I mean, as adults, that's what we're we're talking about here, lawyering up. In this case, you you as a parent, you're their advocate, you're their attorney, and and you wanna know you want them to be comfortable and and and know that it's okay to say that.
Mike Hammond [00:47:21]:
It's okay to say, I want my parents here. And then, of course, you're gonna advocate for your kid, but then you go there and you do that. You say, well, listen, I I I understand, you know, the kid's got a broken nose, but my kid is here telling me and I believe him that they were afraid, that they were afraid. They were in fear. So I'm fine with their actions. Right? And and if you're gonna try and discipline, we're then we are lawyer or not, literally. Right? I mean, now you you also you know, of course, integrity is is everything. Right? So you also you wanna ingrain that in your kids.
Mike Hammond [00:48:08]:
You you know, ultimately, you're gonna be defined throughout their whole life by their integrity. Right? So, you know, own when you make mistakes as well because that it happens. Right? Especially You know? You know? So so you own that as well. But and and and teach them integrity. But, you know, if they know that they can your children know that they can come to you and and they can tell you the truth and they can, you know, they know how to articulate their fear to you and to everybody else, then more often than not, you know, you're gonna be in pretty good shape. I think you can think about it in terms of, like, you are the kinda commander of your own little military unit there, your family, and your job 1 is to keep your soldiers safe. Right? And I'm not a military guy. I'm a college boy who became a policeman and homicide detective.
Mike Hammond [00:49:15]:
So your military guys out there, I may be talking out of school, but that's the way to think about it. Like, you want trained and comfortable and and and confident, able to articulate themselves, and you wanna keep them safe. And how do you keep them safe? Those these things we've talked about. 1 is right there.
Adam Mitchell [00:49:35]:
What I'm hearing from you then this is really interesting. What I'm hearing then is I was scared. I was scared, and I wanna I wanna see my mom or my dad. And as I'm thinking this through, I'm imagining myself or one of my own kids being in whether it's in the back of a police car, whether it's, whether it's in the principal's office. They're they're surrounded by adults. They they are coming out of a, you know, even if it's a low level traumatic situation like a fight or a a an extreme bullying situation that got really bad where they were bullied in the locker room or something happened. Their their heart rate is elevated. They're they're in a completely different state.
Adam Mitchell [00:50:15]:
It's our responsibility to not have the conversation with the school at that point. It's to get them out of there so that they can kinda get back to baseline. Because if the school is trying to get them to recall information during that period of time, they're gonna be setting that child up for false information. I'm wondering as a former investigator what that protocol was when you're trying to get information out of a subject or out of a someone who was involved in the situation. Was there a period of decompression that they had to go through before you get accurate information? And what does that look like for a parent? What should what should our steps be in that event?
Mike Hammond [00:50:54]:
Yeah. That's a really interesting concept. So as the Chicago Police Department, I mean, part of my job's homicide detective up until about the last 4 years of my career. So 12 years of being a homicide detective, I handled police shootings. It was our job to investigate police shootings. You know? And then they the state of Illinois decided we shouldn't be investigating our own officers and and made a state law where, you know, they they had a civilian agency do that. But up until that point and and we forced our officers to give statements immediately after. And and federal agents, they have, I think, 48 hours before they have to give any statement at all after being involved in a in a in a use of force situation.
Mike Hammond [00:51:46]:
Right? For the exact reasons that you're talking about, you know, it is really difficult to articulate right away what happened, what you went through and and because things happen like this. Right? Yeah. And so those statements taken immediately after are not always gonna be accurate. So, you know, in terms of a parent and how do you deal with it as a parent, well, you know, you get in a fight your kid gets in a fight in a school, then, you know, their that school is gonna wanna know what happened. Right? So that's the importance of being able to articulate that fear and articulate themselves and being comfortable in doing that. Right? But, you know, anytime there is any kind of serious incident where it's a little bit beyond, you know, kids exchanging punches, you know, in the locker room or whatever, and and you get any inclination at all that the school or anyone else is looking at elevating a situation beyond just, you know, alright. This is what it is. Everybody's going home.
Mike Hammond [00:53:10]:
But if they're talking about, you know, suspension from school or if you're talking about arrest or something happens on the street, then, yeah, you have to be the advocate for your your kid. And what's that look like? Well, you know, you you you become the advocate. You go to the school and say, alright. What you know, explain to me what I wanna talk to my kid. Then you find out that side of it. You advocate for them and see where it's gonna go. Right? If you're comfortable with where it's going, in terms of what the school yeah. The kid is not
Adam Mitchell [00:53:46]:
at this point just saying, like, look, I'm taking my child home. We're gonna be back here tomorrow, and we're gonna have a conversation with you. But right now is not the time. I I I I want my child to have a clear head. I want them to get out of this, you know, where they're at and to be settled so that we can have a clear conversation. Is that right? Certainly,
Mike Hammond [00:54:05]:
certainly, if your kid is is actually, you know, in distress, right, and you can see that they're in distress. Again, again, you're their advocate, right, so, like, they're having trouble articulating themselves, their heart rate is elevated, they're still frightened or or they're in this elevated state of of kind of tension, then, yeah, removing them from that and saying, yep. We'll have this conversation. Again, take we have to take our own advice in this as parents because it is really hard not to be like this. Like, I'm gonna defend my kid. That's bullshit. You're not gonna do you're not gonna talk about it. You're not gonna.
Mike Hammond [00:54:52]:
It's really hard not to do that, but it for the best interest of your kids, you kinda gotta do the same. Take a step back and articulate. Overwhelmed with common sense, you know, I like to say, you know, especially when I was interviewing murderers, like, you know, you're not gonna get them to admit to anything by jumping up and down screaming and threatening them. You gotta kinda overwhelm with common sense and and and and put them put yourselves in their shoes the best you can. So when you feel that, especially, like, you feel like your child is being is being is being persecuted or being unfairly treated based on the the scenario as you understand it. Yeah. That's really great advice, Adam. It's just to say, take my son home or my daughter home.
Mike Hammond [00:55:44]:
They're upset. They need to decompress. We're happy to sit down with you and discuss this situation, but not right now. And if the school says, you know, refuses that, then you got decisions to make. If it's me, I say, well, look
Adam Mitchell [00:56:00]:
Can they
Mike Hammond [00:56:01]:
my child
Adam Mitchell [00:56:01]:
Can they say you're not going anywhere? I mean
Mike Hammond [00:56:05]:
Well, ultimately, you know, if, you know, if the if the police are involved and they are saying, yeah. No. You need to stay. I need to get a statement from them. You you can still say, at that point, you know, very frankly, not to get, you know, all the all the policemen, angry at me, but I I think they would agree as a parent. At that point, you know, I'm saying, okay. Well, fine. If you if you're going to if you're telling me now that my child can't leave and you have to have a statement from him, I want an attorney here.
Mike Hammond [00:56:45]:
I don't want them speaking without an attorney. And everybody who is being questioned for our crime or is suspected or there's the possibility that they may be arrested or charged with something has that right to an attorney's. So, you know, at that point, again, calmly, respectfully, always is the best way to handle it because your position is always stronger when you come from a place of calmness and confidence. Right? Your position gets weaker when you are in a place of heightened anxiety yourself. And and that's discipline. It's very hard. It is. It's hard for me, you know, when when, you know, when and I had situations where, you know, my both my children were involved children were involved in things at school and not fights necessarily, but and, it's hard not to go in saying, you know, I'm going in like a bull in a China shop here because this is my kid.
Mike Hammond [00:57:48]:
You know? It it really is. But you you have to play the long game. You just And you
Adam Mitchell [00:57:54]:
also have to pull the reins on the, on your partner, your wife, or the, you know, their mom and just, oh, you can't no. Mama bear can't show up right now.
Mike Hammond [00:58:02]:
Like Right. Not right now.
Adam Mitchell [00:58:03]:
I I love what you said. I wrote it down. You you know, you really want to, show up in with overwhelm with confidence, and, I think that's, that's really sound. So I'm hearing about the importance of trusting, your intuition and really, you know, when it's time to go, it's time to go, And having that conversation with them that they have permission from as from dad to when you hear that inner voice, it has to be listened to. And let fear help you. Don't play the, you know, don't play the game that and and live in a imposter syndrome of, well, I don't have any fear. Don't don't show any fear, kid. Actually use that fear as your greatest, your your greatest tool.
Adam Mitchell [00:58:47]:
And then understand that articulation is one of the most important things, if not the most important thing, because that fight may end the moment, that you get called into the office. But it really may not end for years out or months out in litigation and lawsuits and your child's, college fund getting, you know, taken. So you have to be really careful. And I'm hearing from you, Mike, paying close attention to articulation, telling the child just to say, I'm scared. I am scared right now. I was scared beforehand. I want my mom and dad here. And then that's it.
Adam Mitchell [00:59:20]:
But then mom and dad, we gotta know how to show up, and that's with common sense. That's not going in there guns blazing, thinking everybody's the enemy, but go in and, and and just be as practical and, and and and be able to just remove that child if you can. Get them back to sort of that baseline, and then we can have a clear conversation to to really help work through the situation.
Mike Hammond [00:59:45]:
Yeah. You know? Yeah. I I I think that's really important. And, look, even in the even a situation where you get called in, let's just we'll keep using the school. It could be any situation, but let's say, for school again, you called in and they say, yeah. Your kid really screwed up. Right? And so you talk to your kid and your kid tells you, yeah, dad, I I did. I screwed up.
Mike Hammond [01:00:06]:
Right? Okay. Well, alright. Okay. Integrity is important. But on the other hand, still, you're still the advocate for your kids. So if if you feel like, alright. That's fine. And the and the school is saying, you know, is is reasonable and common sense seems to be okay.
Mike Hammond [01:00:30]:
Fine. You know, you you you you stay with that and see what it is. But it starts to become unreasonable or or, you you know, this yeah. This is my kid's admitting that they screwed this up, but the what you're talking about is does is not constant with the with with with what's occurred here. If you're talking about, you know, suspension or or or things like that, anything like that, then it's time again to do the same thing. Take a step back and say, alright. You know, I hear you, but I I I wanna discuss this further with my child, and then we can have this discussion again about they can say whatever. Well, we're gonna take care of it.
Mike Hammond [01:01:19]:
Okay. Well, you're gonna do what you're gonna do, but, we're not we're not going to I'm not gonna stand here and tell you that I'm agreeing to that. At this point. I need to wanna get them out of this right now. They're under duress. You know? He's admitting he made a mistake, and that's as far as I'm willing to take it at this point. I want him out of this. And if they won't do that, then again, it's time to say, well, you don't have my consent for anything further.
Mike Hammond [01:01:52]:
So whatever you do is without my consent. And, you know, if if we can't have an attorney here now, we certainly will the very next time we have this discussion. You know? I mean, so Parent takes out the phone and
Adam Mitchell [01:02:06]:
record this, Mike.
Mike Hammond [01:02:07]:
I'm sorry?
Adam Mitchell [01:02:07]:
Do you recommend that in this situation that a parent take out their phone and say, hey. Look. I'm just recording this conversation just for our collective safety.
Mike Hammond [01:02:16]:
Yes. Well, first of all, you gotta be you gotta know you're in Illinois, it is illegal to record someone without their consent Oh, well. Unless it's on the public way. So you you do have to understand your, local law with that. Right? And, also, like, it's more likely the school's gonna wanna do that. We wanna record this for our own safety. We're gonna be you know, I I'm I'm just leery of that. Can you wanna you don't wanna certainly put your yourself and your child in a situation where they're underdressed.
Adam Mitchell [01:02:57]:
They're
Mike Hammond [01:02:58]:
very, you know, scared. They're very you know? And what they say may not be accurate, may not really reflect the situation. So, I would be leery of documenting that myself and saying I wanna record all this. And I would be leery of the school saying, you know, we wanna we wanna do the same. You know, like, especially where consent is needed, I wouldn't give that consent away. You know what I mean? Because if if they're asking to do that, then it's you can bet that it's more serious than just the, you know, run of the mill, like, you know, Jenny shouldn't have, you know, whatever, pulled the girl's hair or whatever. Well, it's it's if they're wanting to record it and all that, then they were looking to protect their liability. They're say you know, all of that stuff, you should be doing the same.
Mike Hammond [01:03:49]:
And, I I I would be hard pressed to give that consent away, you know, especially in the moment like that. Yeah. Okay. And then
Adam Mitchell [01:03:58]:
being yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. I you know, we got no. No. No. No. No.
Mike Hammond [01:04:01]:
Yeah. Nope. Right. Not right now. Attorney. Because I get why you need to do that. But you have to understand, my responsibility is my child, and I can tell you they are under great duress right now. Whether you consider it or not, I can.
Mike Hammond [01:04:20]:
And this is not the time where they need to be putting their future on the line by making a statement that this happened. We will have that discussion, but because I understand you have to deal with this situation as the administrator, but it's it's not gonna be, well, my child is under this kind of duress. You know what I mean? And, again, that conversation needs to come from a place of common sense, calm, confidence. Like, you know, you know, again, you're the you're your child's advocate, and you're not the best advocate you can be if your own emotion has taken you over. It's easy for me to say it's really difficult to do. But if you think about it in terms of I'm the best advocate for my child when they're in a tough situation if I am controlling my emotion. They're gonna see that. They're gonna learn from that, and, also, I'm gonna get the best result that I can get for them out of this if I'm coming from a from a, you know, place of calm.
Mike Hammond [01:05:27]:
And, especially if you got another parent or somebody there that's clearly not playing that game that is really I want them. I'm a you know, I'm demanding. I'm an attorney. I'm gonna you know? Okay. Well, you know, based on all this situation, I want my child out of this situation right now. We can deal with this at at a later date, and I understand it has to be dealt with, but it's not gonna be right now. It's not gonna be under this circumstance. You know? Just as like me and you are having this conversation now under that same tone, under that same kind of, like, no, definitively.
Mike Hammond [01:06:02]:
This is this is what it's gonna be. And and if they're, you know, they've got the school resource there officer there, No. No. No. Okay. Well, then need an attorney here. You know?
Adam Mitchell [01:06:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Your safety ends where your emotion begins. Right? And once you start getting emotional, then that that's exactly where they wanna get you. That's that's Yeah. Yeah. You you gotta and as you say that, I'm really I'm really I'm sticking on that thing you said about overwhelming common sense, and I'm sort of recalling some experiences.
Adam Mitchell [01:06:33]:
And and I wanna be sensitive of your time, and we'll end it here.
Mike Hammond [01:06:36]:
No. I'm good. I wanna
Adam Mitchell [01:06:38]:
I wanna get into a couple of your own personal experiences before we end this, but I I wanna leave the this sort of conversation with our children with this. And and, again, I'm I wanna take your common sense sharing here and and how you're saying, like, we really want to approach this in that way. And I'm like, what else is there, though? And I recall this one situation, my youngest son. He did the right he did what every dad wants their son to do, which is to stick up for the girl. Right? And, like, look, I'm take it how you want it, but I'm just gonna put it out there and say that's Sure. There was a there was a young lady my son was in. I believe it was in 8th grade. And another boy put his hands on this girl in a very, very inappropriate manner.
Adam Mitchell [01:07:24]:
Very that wasn't just, you know, grabbing her ass or something like that. It was really bad. And this girl happened to be a quite innocent girl. And, I mean, even if she wasn't, it doesn't make a difference, but this was a kind of a quiet girl and part of my my son's, group gaggle of friends there. And, my son, a couple things went down here. He confronted the boy who did this, and the boy was pretty fresh with my son. So we confronted him again, and he knocked him on his back by punching him in the face, and the kid went down. And and then my son walked himself down to the principal's and told them he did that.
Adam Mitchell [01:08:04]:
And when I heard this, of course, you know, I was like, yes. Attaboy. Right? We all wanna do that, but we also there's a couple things that went through my mind that I think especially fathers who haven't been, exposed to violence in their life. Every every man who has every man who's been in a fight can easily remember the first time they broke someone else's body with their hands, whether it's a bloody nose, whether it's a cracked lip, whether it's something worse. But we can recall that traumatic situation. We can also recall those moments we wish we had stepped in when that when that kid was getting hurt. So those things are burned into us as men. Now knowing that this was the experience that my son would carry with him for the rest of his life, When I showed up at that meeting on the phone and my son, his mother was there, vice principal, the principal, the guidance, all these people were there.
Adam Mitchell [01:09:09]:
The very first in there, you know, we we heard the story and this, this, that, and this and that. I said, oh, hold on. Hold on. Wait a minute. This is, I think, Mike, where that common sense thing you can is I wanted my son to know he wasn't alone because I would be like, okay. Luke, tell me the story. What happened? Well, that's me being outside of his circle and asking him a question. I'm now an interviewer.
Adam Mitchell [01:09:30]:
Right? Instead, what I said, hold on, everybody. First of all, Luke, I wanna talk to you as your dad. I'm proud of you, son. You you you you went out. You did this. Maybe you did it the wrong way. But you know what? You did something that we need more of in this world, and that is for men to stand up for what's right. And you played it out wrong maybe.
Adam Mitchell [01:09:50]:
Okay. Fine. We can talk about that. We can work it out. I just want you to know I'm proud of you. You did a good thing, and you helped someone. You also hurt someone? Yes. But I'm with you.
Adam Mitchell [01:10:01]:
I'm proud of you. Now let's get through this together. Okay? The whole attitude in my son changed. The cavalry had just showed up, and he was able to enter that conversation with confidence, and he had his he sat straight up, I mean, all the things. And I think that this is what we're talking about here, Mike, with our listeners is about, like, you you got to regulate. You can't go in there knives out. You have to go in with common sense and being in partnership with your child. And, you know, I also like to say that if you train your child and you have these conversations with them, then when you're not there, you're gonna know what they said.
Adam Mitchell [01:10:39]:
So you're gonna be communicating with them from a distance. Like, you're gonna know going in because you've done this. You've role played with with your child. You know how they function. You know what they said, so you're gonna meet them at where they are. So I just wanted to kinda close that up with that experience, and thank you for that. That was, that was that allowed me to kinda unpack something that I didn't expect to bring into this conversation. So thank
Mike Hammond [01:11:02]:
you. Oh, no. No. Sounds like you handled it perfectly. And, yeah, that's, that's that's teaching your son a a multitude of life lessons there. Right? That, that's a that's a good thing, you know, that, if, you know, at the very least, he's like, you know, well, someday, he has kids. You know? He should think back and say, well, this is stressing me up, and I know, you know, when this happened to me, my dad was calm and focused on me, and that's that's where I'm gonna be for my kid. You know? Yeah.
Mike Hammond [01:11:33]:
Yeah. I hope so.
Adam Mitchell [01:11:35]:
Like, I want just to, I'm curious. As a father and as someone who engaged with Chicago's worst situations, and you probably saw a lot of bad things happen to some good people, You probably saw a lot of bad things happen to some bad people. Share with us 1 or 2 experiences that you've taken away that have molded who you are as a father for the better. And, maybe some of those times when you were sitting in your car afterwards, you're just sitting there maybe shaking your head saying, what just happened? And how did you translate that into being a dad and and maybe even just shifting the course of your children's lives a little bit because of that experience?
Mike Hammond [01:12:24]:
It's a good question. You know, I I I have to say upfront that, I I didn't always do it well. I, I, it was the overwhelming amount of violence that I saw. Sometimes it it made it made it difficult to to all these things I'm saying, you know, you know, be calm and and use common sense and that it made it hard to to do that. I think and it it also made it difficult to not you know, every dead kid I saw not let my mind go there, you know, to to to to equating it to, you know, the kids I had similar age at home. You know? I think everybody I worked with kind of had that struggle with that same thing a little bit. You know? So you you I had to fight the urge to be super overprotective. The way I kind of dealt with it, I think, and ultimately, I think, it came around to where it was a pretty positive thing was what we've talked about here was communicating those things and communicating them in a way where I could still allow them to have a childhood, you know, and and not see all, feel, and and see, monitor, you know, what the, all the horrors that their father was saying and dealing with.
Mike Hammond [01:14:02]:
You know what I mean? So I think, you know, it may sound tragic and it's a it's it's talked about a lot now, but the truest thing in the world is you try to talk a lot to my kids about this is, you know, you really are defined by the people you you spend time with. And so and your level of risk rises and lowers with those decisions you make, with the people that you spend time with. So I, you know, I I I I tried to import that impart that on my kids all the time. And, I think it's paid off because both kids have a a really good group of people around them and, seem to make good decisions. And my kids are able to articulate when they don't and and and be able to express that to to the people in their lives when when they're not making the decisions they're comfortable with. So I suppose that's it's worked out in a good way. Yeah. Of course, her mother played a really big part in that as well.
Mike Hammond [01:15:20]:
So, you know, I didn't keep from them. Like, they don't know the stories too much. You know? So this podcast where I'm telling some of these stories, my kids are hearing some of this for the first time. And, I'm okay
Adam Mitchell [01:15:37]:
with this.
Mike Hammond [01:15:37]:
Cool, though,
Adam Mitchell [01:15:38]:
because it gets them to learn new parts about their dad and new I could imagine it creates first of all, I could imagine it creates this sort of sort of voice in the back of your head being like, man, my kids are gonna be listening. Do I wanna go there? But it also allows your daughters to get to know you a little bit better.
Mike Hammond [01:15:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, yeah, my my daughter's 26. My son's 22. So they're old enough now where they can kind of process all of this. You know? And, and so I'm good with it now.
Mike Hammond [01:16:08]:
You know? I I I, and, it's a funny thing. You know? I actually saw a policeman get shot and killed in front of me while I was doing my internship in college, which is that's a real anomaly. You know? And the people in my life close to me are aware of that, but, you know, but not too many people know the whole story. So, like, one of my brothers, like, really encouraged me to kinda tell that story on the podcast. And I struggle with doing that for a variety of reasons, but finally, I said, yeah, it it it at least explained a lot of, I think, who I am because, I it, in some ways, you know, life works this way where you can kind of, it's things build over time or you have one instance that shapes you, whatever it was. In a lot of ways, I think that, I'd figure this out myself. This took some kind of therapy to to get to this point. But, in a lot of ways, I think that you can, kinda trace who my is back to July 1, 1987, right, which is the day that this happened.
Mike Hammond [01:17:29]:
And so a weird thing about it was when I did and that's just recently where I did this podcast and I talked about it, I just kinda laid it out. Like, you and I are sitting here talking. I just told the story. You know? And, it's interesting. 1 of my both my brothers are younger than me, but not a lot. And, we're all close, but and they knew the story, basically, but they didn't know it in that detail. It's pretty emotional for them, you know, because they're just like it's tough to hear that you went through that at 22 years old, you know, because our kids, my kids are all about that age. You know? It really wasn't about me.
Mike Hammond [01:18:12]:
Like, the policeman got you. I didn't get hurt. It was just, you know, something I saw and and and and, I didn't think much about it. I didn't really think much about it at all for years years years until until I finally talked to somebody because I couldn't understand I don't wanna get too deep into this. But I I mean, I just I I I did struggle for a while with why do I seem to, at work, be able to deal with this really with this traumatic shit at a really high level and calmly and and but in my personal life, like, I I I just can't seem to get there. I I struggle with you know? Then finally, I had somebody explain to me after I got to know me a while, say, look. You have to kind of entertain the thought that your brain just got trained differently than the average person. Right? You're 22 years old, you're pretty you're pretty impressionable.
Mike Hammond [01:19:06]:
The male brain doesn't kinda really develop until about 25 years old completely. So and then it wasn't long after that. I'm on Chicago police department. I'm seeing a lot of stuff all the time. Right? And so, whatever. I don't need to get too far down that road, but, so as it relates directly to your question, I think that I also had to learn that as a parent, like, how to articulate all this stuff to my kids without robbing them of their childhood, the innocence of their childhood, still making them safe, making them and, you really probably have to ask them how how that worked out, but they're 2 great kids. I love them, and so I'm very proud of how they've turned out. So, again, their mom plays a has played a big role in that.
Mike Hammond [01:19:57]:
So, you know, everybody's trying to do the best they can, and now I'm imparting wisdom to to your fathers out there who who you've you're doing this great thing with, and it's not a perfect science. I'm what I hope that I'm imparting here and and you're you're imparting on a regular basis to them is this is a it's a buildup of learning these lessons. Right? So I I this just didn't come about. I saw some just awful things. You know? My daughter likes to joke dad doesn't watch horror films because he saw, you know, worse things in our in any horror film, and that's probably pretty accurate. But so now here I sit with this, you know, life of experience. And so that's the place I'm coming from in giving this advice and talking to these things about these things with you and trying to part this on to to fathers who were trying to figure out this. Right? It didn't come to me like this.
Mike Hammond [01:21:03]:
This is years of figuring my own shit out with this tidal wave of ugly stuff. You know? So, yeah.
Adam Mitchell [01:21:12]:
For as I'm listening to you, I'm imagining how proud the children are of you, Mike. I mean, let's just put yeah.
Mike Hammond [01:21:18]:
Oh, thanks, man.
Adam Mitchell [01:21:19]:
I'm I am certain they are. What an amazing story. And you went into it a little bit, but as we wrap up here, tell us a little bit about, detective story with Mike Hammond and, what you have going on there, who the audience maybe, you know, maybe we can invite some of our law enforcement community over to that to listen to it. What can we get from it? What can we expect?
Mike Hammond [01:21:40]:
Yeah. So, you know, my daughter talked me into doing it because she loves true crime. Right? And she loves all that stuff, and she's and, she never really came to me and asked me a bunch of those questions, but and I think that's just me and a good daughter not wanting to tax her father with telling the stories. But she's heard me tell some. She knows I like talking. So when I finally made a decision, okay, I'm gonna do this, there was 2 obstacles I I needed to overcome. 1, it is, it is counterintuitive for us to put ourselves out there like like this because, again, there are law firms in the state of Chicago make 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars in the city. So any sidestep, I'm right back into that.
Mike Hammond [01:22:23]:
So I'd be careful without so I went to some guys I know and trust, a big part of my life that I worked with and said, what do you think of this? And expecting, well, one, I'm gonna get a big ball busting because, you know, we we any ammunition we give each other to tease each other, we won't take, but which is fine. I live with that. But, I also wanna know how stupid this is an idea. And they were all kinda universally like, no. I like it. You know? Somebody needs to hear our side. And then the second part is like, well, I don't want this to be about my canon. I mean, I don't know that I'm all that interesting.
Mike Hammond [01:22:57]:
But I worked on some interesting stuff, and I worked with some really, amazing people. So I decided I wanna make this about, I'm gonna tell the victim's story. So that's what I've done in these podcasts, and I've been very lucky. I've got victims' families who've come and done interviews with me, and that's amazing cathartic thing in itself. You know? 20 years 22 years later, I'm talking to people that our only interaction was, like, the worst moment in their life. And these conversations are like 2 old friends talking, and it was good for me, and I think it was good for them. But, really, what we're trying to do is just, honor the victims. Whether the case is solved and the bad guys in prison are dead, you know, still amazing people, some of these victims that really there's they shouldn't be forgotten about.
Mike Hammond [01:23:47]:
And then some cases that are still open that I'd like to see resolution to and I talk about. And and and that's, you know, kind of just what I want it to be, a a a focus on the victims and the ancillary stuff that people like hearing, you know, what it's like to be a homicide detective, how investigation works, the whole mystery true crime thing. You know? That's all good. I I like telling that those stories. I, you know, I don't mind it at all. But, you know, it's really to me, it's about the victims and their families.
Adam Mitchell [01:24:23]:
Wow. Well, thanks for doing that. I'm looking forward to diving into that, and and listening to some of your stories. So I'm pretty excited.
Mike Hammond [01:24:32]:
Appreciate that. Thank you.
Adam Mitchell [01:24:33]:
Yeah. Mike, I want to, say thank you for sharing this, this time together here and sharing your wisdom and your experience with the listeners and those of us who actually watch us on YouTube as well. I really walked away from this conversation
Mike Hammond [01:24:48]:
with kind
Adam Mitchell [01:24:50]:
of a a new framework work. I was able to take a couple of things from what you said, and, I'm gonna be adding them to, as I said, my toolbox here. And I think that we were able to put together some great talking points that a father can have with their children in terms of, of what does using force look like, and what does it look like after you've had to use that force? What to say, what not to say, what to expect, from your body, what to expect from, the your your school or law enforcement or whoever and, a little bit about, what even the parents' rights are. This has been extremely helpful. I wanna thank you for that. And for those of you fathers listening, please you can check out closequarterdad forward slash threediscussions, kinda one word, the number 3, the word discussions, where I have a 10 minute video where we go through the 3 most critical areas of personal protection, loss prevention, and that doesn't mean abduction only. It also means getting lost in the in an urban setting or a child getting separated from you, maybe, in a national park or something. And the quick conversations that you can have with these children to help them through those as well as, family safety.
Adam Mitchell [01:26:06]:
So you can check that out totally for free. I'm not selling anything there. So, that's just my gift to the listeners. Mike, where can we find you if someone wants to connect with you or some of the listeners might have further question or or about this episode or maybe something that you may be able to help them with?
Mike Hammond [01:26:24]:
Well, sure. First, if you don't mind, I mean, let me say, Adam, I I really admire what you're doing here. I I think trying to be the best parent you can be is among the most noble of all things. Right? It takes courage. It takes dedication, and it's hard. And and there's a reason that everybody's not a great parent. It's hard. It's hard work.
Mike Hammond [01:26:46]:
And so you creating this kind of whole environment to facilitate these conversations and and get I I I until I I I saw your show and I I I didn't really even think about the concept and and I just I really admire you for doing it. I think it's great. And Thank you. And good for you, man. Keep it up. And and for for all the parents out there, this is a great thing. Engage. But for me, anybody that wants to reach out to me, you're more than welcome.
Mike Hammond [01:27:16]:
I'm happy to answer any questions you have at all regarding just about any, or really anything. I got no limits on that. And the best way to do that is my email. It's just [email protected], one word, dotnet. [email protected]. And, I'll I'll I'll definitely get I'll definitely get back with you. And, this has been a great conversation. Good for me too.
Mike Hammond [01:27:42]:
I really appreciate it.
Adam Mitchell [01:27:43]:
Thanks, Mike. I appreciate you. Take care. Okay. Yep.